Two Years of a Pontificate - An interview with Televisa

Do you like being Pope? Do you like living in Santa Marta? Do you feel alone? These are some of the questions that Pope Francis answered on 6 March – on the occasion of the second anniversary of his election as the Supreme Pontiff – for the Mexican journalist and writer Valentina Alazraki, correspondent for Televisa. In their friendly conversation, the two were seated in front of a large picture of Our Lady of Guadalupe. The technical aspects of the interview were handled by the Vatican Television Center and Vatican Radio. The transcript was then translated from the Spanish and edited by L'Osservatore Romano.

Pope Francis, above all, thanks a million. Although I’ve been in Rome for many years, this is the first time that I’ve sat down with a pope to do a formal interview.

How frightening!

I am quite intimidated. With John Paul II, I used to hide behind the plants, sneaking in here or there, but there was never an interview like this: seated, formal. So, the truth is, I am very moved, but, above all, very very grateful. And the first thing that I am going to ask you is what all Mexicans or many, or the majority of Mexicans, are asking themselves: knowing that there’s no place like Mexico, how is it possible that you are not visiting us this year? There were great expectations that you would come in September…

I was thinking about doing it, because I wanted to enter the United States through the Mexican border. But, if I went to Ciudad Juárez, for example, and entered from there, or to Morelia, and entered from there, it would cause a bit of a fuss: why is he going there and not coming to see Our Lady, the Virgin Mother? What’s more, you can’t visit Mexico in little bits. Mexico takes a week. I promise to make a trip to Mexico of the sort that Mexico deserves – not in a hurry or just passing through. That’s why I decided not to enter through Mexico.

Pope Francis, you have chosen this room where I know that you also have very important meetings. This is where you decide the future of your Church, of the Church. Under the “supervision” of the Morenita (the little brown Virgin), Our Lady of Guadalupe. What does the Virgin of Guadalupe mean to you?

Well, here you’ve touched on a theme that’s very close to me. How do you define the historical moment of Mexico, when she visits Mexico, and the heritage she left behind? Speaking to St Juan Diego, there in the field, MOMPUA she says, “Madre” two times. “I am the Mother of God through whom one lives.” And later, when he is a little bit fearful, she says, “What are you afraid of? Am I not here – I who am your mother?” In other words, she is a mother.

There was a lot of sinning. But there were also a lot of saints. Yes, we have those saints: St Rose of Lima, we recall; the “negrito” St Martin of Porres…. Now when I go to the United States I am going to canonize the holy man who evangelized California, Junipero Serra, who, before going on the mission to California, went to her, to ask for her blessing. In a way, she opened up this current of holiness. There are many Mexican saints, American saints.

 

Afterwards, we have called her the Queen, the little Queen, just as Juan Diego did. The Empress of America. But she defines herself as a mother. At a moment when America was being reborn. And she is the mother who brings the Good News to us in Mexico. She is a mother who is expecting a child. And during that tragic moment of the “conquista” - because there was a bit of everything there – she brings salvation. She shows that she is bringing a child. But how does she show it? In what way does she show it, aside from being pregnant? She appears “mestiza” – of mixed race. It is all a prophecy, our American mixing of the races. A prophecy of our culture. That’s why she transcends Mexico; she goes far beyond it and represents the unity of all the American people. She is the mother. America is not an orphan. It has a mother. A mother who brings us to Jesus. In other words, the salvation that is Christ comes through a woman, and she wanted to demonstrate this through her mixed race, which she brought to Mexico in a special way. And she chooses to appear to a son of that culture. She doesn’t pick a Spanish boy, or a colonizer, or a vain lady. No. A simple, humble married man.

So, for me, she is a mother. She is the mother of mixed race. And I would dare to say something else. She is the beginning of something that we don’t talk about much in America, which is the trigger mechanism of holiness. In other words, in the colonization of American, in the conquest of America, there was a lot of sin. For me, she is all that I have said: the mother, the source of cultural unity, the gateway to holiness. In the middle of so much sin and so much injustice, and so much exploitation and death, she is the mother, no? So, this is what I feel when I see her.

Pope Francis, on the plane returning from the Philippines, you said that you would have liked to enter the United States through the Mexican border, that border that is so very meaningful. You are the son of immigrants. Your parents were Italians. They traveled to Argentina. You carry that in your blood. What would be the meaning of your presence there, on that border.

People not only from Mexico, but also from Central America, from Guatemala, who cross the whole of Mexico, seek a better future. Nowadays, immigration is the product of a lack of well-being in the etymological sense of the word - the fruit of hunger, or seeking new frontiers. The same thing happens in Africa, with all this crossing of the Mediterranean by people who come from countries that are experiencing difficult times, because of hunger, because of wars. But it is evident that immigration today is closely linked to hunger, to unemployment, to this tyranny of an economic system centered on the god of money and not the person.

And then people get discarded. Then a country – it may in the Americas, it may be in Africa, wherever – creates an economic situation, imposed, of course, that discards people, who go elsewhere to look for work, or food, or well being. Immigration now – the problem of immigration in the world - is very painful. There are quite a few borders of immigration.

I am happy that Europe is revising its immigration policy. Italy has been very generous, and I want to say so. The mayor of Lampedusa put everything on the line, up to the point of transforming that island from a land of tourism to a land of hospitality. Which means not earning money, no? These are heroic deeds. But now, thanks be to God, I see that Europe is rethinking the situation.

But returning to immigration over there, in that area … it is also a region with a lot of problems with drug trafficking. They tell me that the United States – I don’t want to throw around statistics which, later on, will create a diplomatic problem for me – but, they tell me and I saw it in a magazine: I think that the Unites States is among the largest consumers of drugs in the world, and the border through which the drugs enter is mainly the Mexican border. So, they suffer there too. Morelia, all of that area, is a region of great suffering, where the drug trafficking organizations don’t go around like little girls. That is to say, they know how to carry out their business of death. They are messengers of death, whether through the drugs themselves or by getting rid of those who are opposed to drugs. The 43 students are, in some sense, pleading – I don’t say for vengeance – for justice, and to be remembered.

And that’s why – I am addressing here what may be a point of curiosity – I made the archbishop of Morelia a cardinal: because he’s in the frying pan. He’s a man who’s in a very hot situation. And he bears witness as a Christian man, as a great priest. But we can talk about the cardinals later. I just mention this in passing.

As a Latin American pope, as the first Latin American pope, do you feel within yourself a greater responsibility to be the voice of millions of people who find themselves in the situation of having to leave their countries, to cross borders and walls, whether it’s in America, Asia, Europe, wherever?

Yes, to be the voice, but not in a programmatic way. It comes to me naturally. From the very fact of our Latin American life experience. And from my immigrant blood. My dad, with my grandparents, went to Argentina. They had a good past here, but for political reasons – my grandmother was deeply involved in the emerging Catholic Action, and although they never made her take the castor oil, but that was… then they decided to look for new pastures. Moreover, the brothers of my grandfather already had a good business there in Entre Rios, but they arrived in ’29, and in ’32 the crisis left them in the street. Without anything. And a priest lent them 2,000 pesos, with which they bought a grocery store, and my father, who was an accountant, did the deliveries with a basket. Those people earned a living; they remade their life. And they struggled to support the family. That tells me a lot. I drank this in at home.

That’s where you got the sensibility that you have…

I think so. Yes. Plus, in Argentina, I’ve seen difficult situations. Poverty, marginalization, even drug addiction, which are the things that move me. But it comes to me naturally, not from some ideology. That’s why, sometimes, I am a bit careless and my tongue runs away from me, but it doesn’t matter….

We will talk about that… Pope Francis, you referred to the 43 students of Iguala. It was a very difficult moment for Mexico, a great grief for our country.

Even now, I recall that the cardinal of Morelia, Monsignor Suárez Inda, was here. He said that when there is a difficult situation we are all culpable; in some way, we are all responsible. The Church doesn’t give technical political solutions, but I think it would be necessary to send a message of encouragement so that Mexico, with the resources that the people have, the values that the people have, can go forward, have hope, think about peace and a better future.

This isn’t the first time that Mexico has passed through difficult times. This is where I go back to the question of sanctity. What I mean is, Mexico went through moments of religious persecution, which produced martyrs. I think that the devil punishes Mexico in a nasty way. For this reason: I believe that the devil can’t forgive Mexico, because she has showed her Son there. That’s my interpretation. In other words, Mexico is privileged by martyrdom, for having recognized and defended its mother. You know this very well. You meet Mexicans of all sorts: Catholics, non-Catholics, atheists. But all of them “guadalupanos” – devotees of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Everybody considers themselves her children. Children of the woman who brought the Savior, the one who destroyed the devil. So this is connected to the theme of holiness too. I believe that the devil is making Mexico pay an historical price. That’s why all these things happen. You can see that, in history, points of serious conflict have always flared up.

Who is to blame? The government? That’s the easy answer, the most superficial solution. Governments are always at fault. So, yes, the government. In some sense, we all share the blame or, at least, for not having taken the suffering to heart. There are people who are doing fine, and perhaps the death of these kids didn’t affect them; it bounced right off them: “Well, it didn’t hurt me. Thank God it didn’t affect me.” But the most of the Mexican people have a sense of fellowship. It’s one of the virtues that you have. And I think that everyone has to pitch in to resolve this in some way.

I know that it is very difficult to denounce a drug dealer. Because you’re risking your life. It’s a kind of martyrdom, right? It’s hard, but I believe that all of us in such situations – whether we’re talking about Mexico or not – have to do our part. It’s infantile to cast the blame on just one sector, one person, or one group.

Pope Francis, you sent a private email to a friend in Argentina expressing your concern for the growing diffusion of drug trafficking in your country. And you used the expression “Let’s try to avoid mexicanization.” That expression has, let us say, wounded some sensibilities. The Mexican government thought that it was a stigmatization of our nation, a failure to recognize the efforts it is making or trying to make. The truth is… what happened there? What were you trying to say?

Yes. The young fellow. This guy is a leader, a man who has worked for social justice and works a lot. My friend comes from the political left, from Trotskyism: he comes from that world. He is a man who encountered Jesus and works for social justice and tells me about it. He told me about how they have managed to discover some drug trafficking networks and how they are struggling and that they had also closed down a chain of houses of prostitution. He works a lot in the field of enslavement – sweat shops with immigrants where they get them the passport and then they have them as slaves, prostitution, drug addiction, etc.

And so he tells me, well, this: “we don’t want to arrive at the mexicanization of Argentina.” That’s how he put it, no? Evidently, it is an expression – allow me to use the word – “technical.” It doesn’t have anything to do with the dignity of Mexico. Just as, when we speak of “balkanization,” nobody – not the Serbs, not the Macedonians, not the Croations – gets angry. One speaks of “balkanizing” something, and it’s used in a technical sense, and the means of communication have used it many times, no?

“Colombization” is used, for example.

They say that too, isn’t that right? So I answered: I am praying, I am accompanying them, and let’s hope that we don’t arrive at the mexicanization, technically. It created a dust-up, but most people, judging from the statistics that reached me from polls that some journalists did there… ninety percent of the Mexican people were not offended by that. Which made me happy. It would have been a great sorrow for me if it had been interpreted in that way, no? The government, after having asked about it, accepted the explanations - which were true, no? - with complete and total peace. In short, they didn’t close the doors of Mexico on me. I am going to go to Mexico.

Pope Francis, along similar lines… we know that you have a, so to speak, personal correspondence that is very active. You call people on the phone; you write personal letters – exquisite ones, by the way. In the face of what happened, have you thought about telling these people that, perhaps, they ought to have some common sense, so that… if I get a letter from the pope, I don’t publish it. Haven’t you thought that, since you are now the pope, you are no longer Padre Jorge. Haven’t you thought about telling them, “Look, I call you on the phone, I write to you, but, when all is said and done, it’s private”?

I usually do that, normally. But some times people don’t… they can’t keep it in.

 

Then they cause problems for you. I mean, one thing is private correspondence.

This friend of mine wrote to me begging my pardon. He swore up and down that he would never again publish…

Is he still your friend?

Yes. Moreover, he did it as a way of saying “even the pope is fighting against drugs.” It’s true that the fact of touching on such a delicate topic can have consequences for me. But I have to say that, at times, I have felt that I was being used by the politics of the country: Argentinian politicians who sought a meeting…

Yes, I understand your question, and I want to answer openly, even though it might cause me some personal trouble in my own country. But I am simply saying what happened. Of course, the Argentinians, when they saw an Argentinian pope, forgot all about those who were against an Argentinian pope. And we Argentinians are not humble. We’re very conceited. You know how an Argentinian commits suicide?

No.

No? He climbs up on his ego and throws himself off.

I’d heard many jokes, but not that one.

We are very… we are the champions of the world. And then there’s the champion soccer team, San Lorenzo.

Well, I suspect that San Lorenzo is the champion because of you. It was too easy for them.

And we get puffed up. We are not humble. We easily get puffed up: the Argentinian lack of moderation, proper to our way of being, a bit ostentatious, taken with ourselves… we are the best in America, that type of thing, isn’t that right? I know that many people, most of them without intending it, some intentionally, make use of coming here or a letter of mine or a telephone call. There are people I call who never open their mouths. I’ve called, and they never said anything about it. Sick people. Or I’ve sent a letter, and they never published it. Others did. But, if I feel I ought to do something, I do it and run the risk.

 

Returning to Mexico. Is there anything that concerns you about Mexico?For example, the Protestant sects. They’re a problem not only in Mexico. You are Latin American. You were one of the leaders at Aparecida. Sadly, in the southeastern part of Mexico, there is this problem, and we’ve seen how, in many countries of Latin America, the sects are advancing, gaining ground. What happened there?Has the Church failed in some way? How can these people be recovered?Why did they leave the Church and go to the sects? Do they offer something different, more concrete? How do you see it?

Something similar. One thing is that… the evangelical movements, I mean, afterwards I will distinguish between sects and those that are not sects. Let’s talk about the whole evangelical movement, whether they are sects or not. What they offer, in general, is “proximity,” closeness. You go to the worship meeting one day, and the following Sunday, they wait for you at the door and they know your name and they greet you. You are a person.

We Catholics – often because there are so many of us or, above all, because of a big defect that we have in Latin America, which is clericalism – maintain our distance. Clericalism in Latin American was one of the biggest obstacles to the growth of the laity. The laity in Latin America only grew in the area of popular piety. Because there the lay person is free, and that lay person is creative and good, and he has his processions, his devotions. But in terms of organization, the lay person did not grow sufficiently, and he didn’t grow partly because of this clericalism that creates distances.

So, returning to the question, one of the things that are encouraged and created in the evangelical movements is closeness. “Hello, pal, how are you?” Then there’s a distinction to be made between good, honest evangelical movements and a sectarian movement. For example, there are some religious offerings that are not Christian. They aren’t Christian, and the evangelicals won’t have anything to do with them. And they… And there are sects, some of which come from the theology of prosperity: “If you come, everything will go well for you.” I remember one in Buenos Aires. I didn’t go myself, but I asked some friends to go see what was going on. It was a penitential service. So, there was a fervent spontaneous discourse, a fervent homily on sin and how God forgives… really well done. Then they say, “So, now, everybody think about your sins, and those of you who did this” – they were going through the commandments – “ask for forgiveness and, in order to have it, you have to give a donation of a certain amount.” I’m simplifying, no? It’s clear that the evangelicals reject all that. The serious evangelicals, no?

 

Then there’s this phenomenon of using religion as a kind of business. Like in the case where you take a little course somewhere, and then you open up a house of worship. But I would make distinctions and not lump everyone together. There are groups who call themselves “evangelicals” and they are not even Christians, and – just as we do – many evangelicals recognizeit. I spoke about this once with a great friend of mine. I spoke about it at length with a great Lutheran friend of mine, a professor in the Lutheran department of theology. He was Swedish, Pastor Anders Root - he died three years ago, after having returned to Sweden – with whom I shared the Chair of Spiritual Theology.

I invited him when I was teaching in a Catholic department of Spiritual Theology. We talked a lot. We are great friends. And he wrote an habilitation thesis. Not a doctorate, but rather a habilitation thesis. He did it on a movement that called itself “evangelical”, but which is not really Christian, and he demonstrates why it isn’t Christian. I know that, in this matter, with the evangelicals – not only with the historical churches, but also with the evangelical movements – we are in agreement: there are some sects that are not even Christian and others that are – to use a phrase - just a piece of junk.

In addition, I’d like to also make a distinction about a an equivocal word: pentacostalism. There are pentacostals who more or less resemble these groups which aren’t really Christian, and there are pentacostals who work with us and we have meetings together with the movement of the Catholic Renewal in the Spirit. The whole business is very… one must go case by case or know how to distinguish. We can’t throw everyone into the same bag.

OK, I’m getting back to the question. Why? Why do they give people that sense of closeness, after the announcing of the word. At times our homilies… a

Roman priest told me that he went to visit his parents who live in a town near Rome. His father told him one day: “Hey, you know I’m happy because my friends and I have found a church where they say Mass without a homily.” There are homilies that are a disaster. Yes. I don’t know if it’s the majority, but they don’t reach the heart. They are classes of theology or long, abstract things. That’s why, inEvangelii gaudium, I dedicated so much time to the homily. Well, in general, the evangelical pastors have a closeness, and they reach the heart, and they prepare the homily well. I think that, in this matter, we have to change.

Obviously, the Protestant concept of the homily is much stronger than the Catholic one. In the beginning, for Luther, the homily was practically a sacrament. For us it was, well, a dissertation or a catechesis, and it was reduced to catechesis. Thanks be to God, we Catholics have now found the theology of preaching, where the homily has a role, almost like a sacramental. God puts something in there. It’s something very serious, no?

So, evidently… distance, clericalism, borin